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Hagerty Employee

Why do I have to pick a side in the EV vs. ICE debate?

Just a few days ago I wrote a story about the new(ish) breed of hybrid hypercars. The gist was that car makers really don't have a choice but to electrify their products if they are to meet ever-stricter emissions and noise regulations. It's fair to say that the comments section exploded, and quickly became a battleground [...]
Advanced Driver

I'm the same. I have accepted the future as EV's take over. I don't necessarily like it (having grown up with old muscle cars and Corvette's) but I know change is coming (if not already here). Fortunately I'm at the age where having a weekend ICE monster (shopping for yet another (4th!) Corvette) for the weekends, I would be happy with an Electric vehicle for daily commutes. Nice and quiet for the two hours I'm stuck in traffic so I can dream about Saturday and blasting through the gears and listening to the LS roar!

I've been interested in EV for awhile. 3-4 years ago no dealership in a 100km radius of where I lived had one for sale. Used... couple of 7 year old Leafs with bad batteries and a few used Tesla at more than I have ever paid for a vehicle. That has changed now.

I'm amused at being one of the first to drive one as a winter beater around here. Not sure it will work out. We have cold winters, deep snow and I don't have a heated garage (or any garage) to keep one in.

I'm surrounded by people that are hostile to EV. Some of their points are or were valid:

-being forced to do it
-it just moves tailpipe emissions somewhere else
-it costs more
-it's not cheaper on gas over 5 years to buy the EV even with the rebate (I think this math no longer holds... but it did)
-they are a problem if they burn (true, but I don't want to be in any type of burning thing...)
-what about the 7 year to 15 year lifecycle that most vehicles actually get used?
-what happens when it is scrap?

I will say that most of the vehicles made in the last 30 years are ugly to me... and EV dominate the "most ugly" charts. I not even talking the wacky love-it/hate-it stuff like the concept Cybertruck.

Snailish, you could be the most realistic EV owner I’ve come across. You get it. I’m not anti-EV, would not be opposed to owning a hybrid, but prefer to choose ICE vehicles for my type of driving. If you want to read a current comparison between ICE and EV emissions, read the Volvo study. In the long run an EV will emit less than an ICE vehicle, but because the manufacturing process for EVs produces 70% more emissions than ICE manufacturing, the break even mileage is higher than most people would think.
All in all, buy the vehicle that suits you the best. Although I think the world would be a much better place if everyone drove stick shift convertibles! That is a mandate I would endorse.
Advanced Driver

You go farther on ugly than I do. The teens is definitely the worst decade for automotive styling. And SUVs have been particularly ugly.

The '90s had a few good looking cars (Caprice, first gen Saturn SL, Integras, various others). Even the '00s had some OK cars, especially the first half of the '00s.

As you say, EVs have mostly been ugly, or even Fugly. The Teslas are among the fugliest. But a few of the new ones--the Lucid Air for ex--look pretty nice.

I just find mechanical things have character, and electronic things--including electric motors--don't. I like ICE.

You should not need to pick a side, you should be free to choose.
What I don’t want is unelected regulators who hate car culture choosing the kind of car I want to own.

***choosing the kind of car I’m allowed to own.

The EV vs ICE debate among enthusiast has become a very emotional topic. This has led to  many digging in their heals and all too often lies and miss information on both sides of the debate.


The greatest feed for this is due to forced government regulations and the fact these regulations are based on global warming claims that lead to even greater emotional debates and even greater lies and miss information. 

There is nothing inherently wrong with EV products. They have come a long way in a short time and they will be a very viable option in the near future for most drivers. 

I am and always will be a petrol head but I understand and do see many good things with EV products that are coming. 

It used to be we could vote to change the emissions regulations or CAFE averages every 4 years. It was just a political football and most automaker fought back. 

Today the automotive industry is and needs to be a global industry to survive. The reason so many companies are doing business in China now is they are the fastest and largest auto market in the world. To not be there is a great risk of failure in the rest of the markets that are in decline. 

Now with the global regulations there is little fighting back by the automakers. Also add in the fact that to make ICE meet the regulations is getting more difficult and even more and more costly. 

The fact is EV models are projected to continue to decline in price and will prove to be cheaper to build yet more profitable much like many other electronic technologies. 

We are not out of oil, we are not going to kill the planet with ICE vehicles. To be honest there is no real race needed to make this transfer but those with global Agendas are pushing it and this is leading to push back. 

The migration should have been left to the mfgs and customers not global governments. I feel if left alone the migration would take a little longer but would still take place for the majority of drivers. The average drive is cut out for EV as it fits their nature of less upkeep and getting there. They are not wrapped up in engine sound or quarter mile times or much else. Affordable, reliable, safe and less maintenance is what most average driver look for. 

As it is now the change over is coming and we all are going to have to find our place in the future. The time frame could change but the automakers had to commit to the future as they can’t keep changing plans on billion dollar projects for global vehicles. 

My real fear is the future of our hobby in the vintage car markets. They could tax our cars to where many of us can’t afford them. They could add more ethanol to our fuel to destroy our older cars. They could do a number of things that could remove us from the roads and we need to be ready to stand up against this. 

It once was that your car was part of you and your image. It was your shield and it represented you even if you were not an enthusiast. Today cars are just appliances. 

At one time you were a Packard man and that was a earned image of just who you were. Today no one claims to be a Kia Buy. 

I work in the performance aftermarket and it has struck home with me that even if I am not an EV guy it is going to be a major part of my future like it or not so I need to get on the leading edge here. I see mfgs and parts suppliers all scrambling to fine where they will fit in to the future. They too are seeing the change is no longer optional. 

The first thing we all need to do is get educated on the truths and weed out the lies. Things are not all doom and gloom. But there are some things that still need work but we all will survive this. 

Look it could be worse they could have stuck us all riding bikes in winter to a bus stop. 

I am optimistic we could see some interesting things. With EV they could program these cars to drive even like an ICE car with a torque curve. They could even program them to react to a shifter. With these electronic platforms a number of different body types and styles could be done in smaller numbers at a lower cost. 

I read up much the SAE publications band see  things and ideas that could come and some things could be interesting. 

I think the automakers need to earn the markets and we should be open minded enough to force them to make real cars that will appeal to us the enthusiast. We should not just accept everything and force them to meet our wishes with this new tech. 

I have driven a number of EV cars and even driven a GM hydrogen prototype. They drive well but to this point I have no interest in any Tesla or any other EV. I do like the Hummer but I doubt I would ever buy one. 

My challenge is to the automakers to give me a fun, affordable and special vehicle that will appeal to me an enthusiast enough I get excited about it. 

Earn my love for a EV. You have failed with the Mustang EV and cars like the Bolt. The Tesla S I found interesting but it has grown stale with no true styling updates and I could care less for the bla interior and fart sounds. 
Also don’t get silly like the Tesla truck. The delay to production has lost the shock value and left us with a odd design that will show tons of finger prints. Note the showing where they kept a staff wiping off the finger prints like my fridge. 

Auto makers get creative. 


Rivian stock price would disagree.

$100k for a truck with a full-charge that can’t do the same work as a F150 with 10 gallons of fuel.
Intermediate Driver

"The migration should have been left to the mfgs and customers not global governments"
You make many valid points, but I feel this one is mistaken. How hard did the mfgs fight against things like seatbelts, air bags, other crash safety measures, or emissions controls (leaded gas comes to mind) that we'd never think of living without, but were spurred (if not outright started by) regulations? I'm not saying every regulation was a good idea, but it's hard to deny that they don't play at least some part in innovation.
Advanced Driver

For a daily driver I feel an EV makes tons of sense. It can heat/cool itself before you get in (ICE can do this too with remote start), most EVs have enough range for daily activities, don't need to stop at a gas station, and the maintenance is supposed to be a bit less (we'll see if this is true in the long run). For a replacement of a commuter car, an EV seems like an easy choice.
For autocrossing, an EV also makes a lot of sense, all wheel drive, tons of torque at lower speeds, low center of gravity, that's exactly what you want.
For longer drives, racing, towing, reducing initial purchase price, and feeling connected to the car, clearly current EVs are lacking compared to ICE vehicles.
There's no reason you can't like both kinds of cars. They each excel at different things. Horses for courses, etc.
Pit Crew

I don't like EVs because I don't like regulations that would ban me from buying a new ICE vehicle in the future.

   I'm happy to see that there are indeed some level-headed, ready-to-see-how-things-go people commenting here.  I agree that change is coming, but then again, my father went everywhere on a plow horse as a youth.  He didn't throw up his hands in panic when horseless carriages started showing up.  The sky may be darkening a bit for ICE fans - but is certainly not falling. There should be a place for we gas gals and guys for the foreseeable future, and EVs will evolve and make a place for themselves - as long, that is, as we don't let the hand-wringers shove something down our throats too quickly.  Accept what's coming and embrace it - and help control how. when. and where the EV will enter our lives.

   I'm an old hot-rodder from the '50s and did a fair amount of drag racing in the '60s and '70s.  I build off-road V-8 rip roarers in the '80s and rode big motorcycles for 50 years.  No secret that I'm an ICE person.  But - - - I would consider buying an EV for daily driver use, if and when it can be shown to me that the numbers work out (both economically and environmentally).  Am I saying I pitch my ICE vehicles over the side and replace with EVs?  No.  But as has been said here by others, the EV could possibly have a place to fit as a useful piece into the overall automotive picture in my life.

   Now, in a couple of generations after I'm gone, will someone wish they could buy hi-test gas to run one of the motors they uncover in my barn?  Will they care?  Ask George Jetson.  😀

Pit Crew

My kids and I have a video channel with basically family and a few friends watching. Our subscriber count recently went from 40 to 38 after I posted a video of our family going to a corvettes and coffee event at our local dealership. A few days later I notice the drop in subscribers and through the grapevine heard that one person quit because they didn't like our "celebration" of the "gas hog muscle car for not quite rich men", And according to the grapevine, a second person unsubscribed because in the video I recounted a story of when our family had electric car for a couple weeks and we had a pleasant experience with it and the person thought I was endorsing our government forcing electric cars on us. I'm not sad about losing either subscriber.

Get back to the basics and a car is a tool. If it can perform that job well, I can appreciate it. Some work better than others. The Bolt we had would be a fine second car, but it would not work for us as a primary vehicle. I have cordless tools, corded tools, and gas powered tools. It works for me. I'm glad what for works for you. It's nice to have options because not everyone's needs the same tool.

Do I like what the government is doing? Mostly no, but I don't hate the cars because of politicians. If people voted the same way as they hold a grudge against types of cars, we'd probably have more political turnover and we'd all be better off.
Intermediate Driver

its really simple. EV evangelists want to rob me of the ability, and already are, to buy whatever car i want. thats all i need to make a choice on which side to support.

Amen! I don't care about EV or ICE, I care about FREEDOM.

EV evangelist have nothing to do with it. It is globalist that are working to control our country and other capitalist countries and bring us to the level of other lower economic countries. 

The guy loving his Tesla is just a guy loving his Tesla. He has no idea who is using him. He is just like us who loves our car his just happens to be electric. 

The companies by regulations are being forced to make these changes or risk failure. Some will fail. 

In the end the temps will be the same and the sky blue in our country. 


Why the digging in of heels?

Because we live in a world where actual facts are discounted, where the media and government work together to push their narrative da jour, and the green agenda is replete with misinformation.

People don’t know what to believe and are being TOLD what to believe, rather than being given the data and make a business case for themselves.

To EV or not to EV, should be a free market decision. Not one of legislative fiat, punitive taxation, or social credit pressure.

Question 1 - where is the power going to originate? Georgia Power almost has their nuke plant complete. 250% over budget. Grid infrastructure, generating capacity, and local recharging is at best 10 years out. More likely 25-30.

Question 2 - outside of solar, hydro, and nuke power, there is little to any CO2 reduction benefit. So why the push?

The actual data is there, we are all being lied to, and it’s a shame. Even when posting links to the Govt data, many don’t want to read the truth.

By far, the most beneficial to pocketbook, environment, and most proven and reliable are hybrids.

EVs accelerate better, are more viscerally appealing, but suffer the lack of solid battery tech.

IF we had many more nuke plants, had cheaper power overall, and the battery tech on EV improves, it would be a hard economic case to go with an ICE.

And so it is. Im a capitalist. I don’t have an EV or a Hybrid. But if I could make a strong business case, I’d consider it.

The damage to our planet due to EV production grows larger every day, but how often does the global news media have anything to say about it? Well over 95 percent of an ICE vehicle can be recycled. Even the starting batteries can be recycled and new ones made from the residue. About the only things that a typical EV offers for recycling are the plastics in the interior and some body parts. The battery array is not economically feasible for recycling at this point, I'm told. It can be done, but the separation/extraction technology is lagging a bit. I still think that a hybrid offers the best compromise, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest from the major manufacturers in pursuing that option. What a shame.