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Hagerty
Hagerty Employee

Washington state passes bill to halt new gasoline-powered vehicle sales starting in 2030 | Hagerty Media

The dominos are falling in the war on gasoline-powered automobiles. Washington state lawmakers have passed a bill to stop sales of gasoline-fueled vehicles there beginning in 2030. That's five years ahead of California, Massachusetts, and New Jersey, which have all set a deadline of 2035. The Environmental Protection Agency says transportation is the no.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/washington-state-passes-bill-to-halt-new-gasoline-powered-vehicle...
21 REPLIES 21
MrKnowItAll
Detailer

We shall see. California years back passed a mandate that 10% (iirc) of new vehicles be electric by a certain date, long passed. The Ford Think automobile.....er, golf cart was offered, among others, and not surprisingly, they couldn’t give them away. The mandate quietly went away,
Virtue Signalling politicians- a variety which does no actual work, but dreams up laws with utopia as the benchmark, are responsible for this. I predict the date will come and go.
The ICE vehicle will be with us for a long time.
OldRoad
Instructor

You misspelled "Udopia"
OldRoad
Instructor

Wait for the EV batteries to fail and watch the outrage of those owners when they have to shell out 10s of thousands of $s for a replacement. After enough batteries are dumped into collection land fills there will be a new global gasp of desperation. "We need to ban EVs, we're all gonna die of lithium poisoning!" Not to mention the brown outs when EVs overload the grid when charging all at once. Every where you look into the future there will be a wind turbine forest each turbine impeding the one in front of it. Each turbine forest comes with it's own bird grave yard. In the end we will still have extreme weather. Hurricanes in Florida, flooding in Texas, tornados in the mid west and fires in California. Nothing is going to change except the misery index caused by the coming petroleum ban. Enjoy your carbon free future comrades!
SirGalahad
Pit Crew

Why don't they ban them right now?

Afraid the consumer and ultimately the constituents that elect you into office would kick you of office?

I call this passing the buck.
bradfa
Intermediate Driver

I'm all for incentivizing people to purchase an EV but I'm not sure how I feel about mandating that only EVs can be sold. Calendar year 2030 means that likely some 2029 model year vehicles will still be on dealer lots, and since likely the automakers are already tooling up to produce 2022 model year vehicles now, that really doesn't leave much time for the automakers to come up with quite a lot of new engineering and manufacturing capability.
I think the 2035 mandates are much more reasonable, but still very optimistic.
limoguy
Intermediate Driver

'Reasonable?' By what scale?
GianniB
Pit Crew

I guess I will have to buy my last new car in 2029.
hyperv6
Gearhead

Folks this is just grand standing of the political folks there. 

The harsh truth is this. Laws or no laws Battery EV cars are coming in mass and no laws will be needed to force the change. 

If you have been paying attention automakers have now been coming out in mass stating their intents to make the change on their own. 

VW and GM were the first, since then a number have made the same announcement or at least are now announcing EV cars. Ferrari was the latest to announce a full EV car. 

This is not a gimmick or short term trend. 

What has happened is they have made gains on Battery cost and range that have shown they can now make their goals of affordable EV cars with ranges and charge times that will not be life style changing to the customers. Over the next 15 years we will see these goal met. 

But what is driving this is once ROI on development is recovered these cars will be easier, faster and cheaper to build and sell netting a greater profit due to lower development cost. Less parts means smaller plants with less staff. No emissions testing. No added development cost and more expensive systems just to meet higher emissions standards or MPG.  These are all real things driving this. 

Cadillac just announced their new CUV EV. Many were expecting a starting price near $100k. The starting price is $59k. It will see more options and things added including a second motor but still come in less than the expected price. 
It also is very stylish and much better inside than any Tesla. Range is min 300 miles but more is expected as GM is normally conservative on range. This is only the first of many interesting lower cost EV vehicles to come. 

The market today wants reliable, affordable transportation before anything else. These will provide that. 

Now I am a gas in the veins gear head. I make my living in the racing industry. We have recently made major steps to start look into into supplying and selling performance parts for EV vehicles. 

The web stories of the Grid, range fears, cost etc are all falling away. The reality is this is coming and while there will still be some ICE hybrids till 2050 the growth of EV will be historic. Denial is no longer an option. 

Now here is what I said all that for this. We as enthusiast need to start fighting now to protect out vintage ICE vehicles. As they become more rare there will be states and cities that will move to ban these vehicles. Much will be due to people passing off an old warn out truck they don’t want to give up on but really should not be on the road. We need to protect the classics and the use of the classic cars. We are not destroying the air as we are few in number. There is no justified reason to ban us. But with some of this in office pushing green agendas we will be branded as outlaws and they will try to vilify us and cancel us. 

So please start getting a grip on the future and realize where this really is going and where we are most venerable. 

Think it won’t happen? I have been part of the fight on the RPM act where the EPA tried to reinterpreted the laws on emissions to prevent you from modifying any new car for racing even as an off road only car. We got a break for 4 years but now these people are back and working to try again. I have spoken to congress men at my desk about this and some are willing to help. But in this day and age that may not be enough. 

FYI. I still love my ICE vehicles. But I have driven a number of EV and even a hydrogen power cell GM vehicle. They are not bad. I wish they could leave it as our choice but I could live easily with EV and an ICE vehicle. 

The real trouble with EV though is this. Noise or lack of it means it is harder to make the car quiet inside. The fact tech will continue to improve so will 5 year old EV cars be as popular as a 5 year old cell phone? Killing resale?

Added weight of all the vehicles and what they will do to our roads and bridges. 

Things like this are what needs to play out yet. Also the taxes lost from gas tax and how will it be collected. 

wirekat
Pit Crew

read, "mileage tax"
limoguy
Intermediate Driver

A couple points: There's a huge difference between talk and results. Manufacturers saying they'll be able to supply a lot of electric vehicles is not the same as saying the public will buy them. Not at all.

The politicians killed the domestic car industry for 10 years in the 1970s because of ill advised environmental regulation.
Realokie
New Driver

Just another way for the lefties to get the "common folk" into buses where they belong so important gubberment officials and, of course, other important people like movie stars and corporate leaders who furnish the big $$ to the elected gubberment officials.
VIZ28
Pit Crew

Laughable, from a state that generates a quarter of its electricity by burning fossil fuels....
CPcummins
New Driver

So where exactly is all this “ new” electricity and infrastructure going to come from.
In Canada we have lots of dams for hydro electric power, but what will you do down south?
The grid is not big enough to support what we have now.
Fact is nobody has addressed the future power issues, so go ahead moonbeam and wish on a star but when the world browns out what are you going to do?
Corvettebaggs
Intermediate Driver

EV's might be the thing of the future...when they're ready. Still have a lot of bugs to work out. Ask the 2 guys who crashed in the Tesla last week. I think the earth will save it self long before we get to it. Just my opinion.
Maestro1
Instructor

It's absurd. Once again, a national charging system has to be constructed, mechanics everywhere need training as to how to fix the things if they fall down, parts need to be readily available and then
legislation, which is unnecessary, to get electrics on the road. Apparently politicians, not known for deep intelligence nor a sense of reality are looking for votes, not positively contributing to social good. From the Dealer's standpoint nobody knows what these cars will be worth as used cars. From the Used Car Manager's view how do you appraise a car, whose worth may depend on a retail sale, how do you appraise it if you don't know anything about it? It's entirely a case of greed overwhelming social responsibility. Banning things accomplishes nothing. Working towards effective change will win every time.
aenthal
Pit Crew

I'm not worried about no new internal combustion engine (gasoline) cars. That just means that used cars from the pre-NIC era will become more valuable, and repair of older cars will get a boost.
During WW2 there were no NEW cars, but people did not stop driving, or buying replacement cars. They learned to take care of what they had, not throw them away after a few years. Car dealers sold only used cars and society survived.
Isn't everyone on this forum an owner of an old car? Nobody is going to take that car away from you or me.
I am puzzled, though, why electric seems to be the focus, when CNG, and propane also get the clean job done. One of the problems of our gasoline-car world is that we all need the same thing, so we ended up with high gas prices, even shortages in the 1970's.
Diversification is the solution to that. Solar cell car roofs, hybrid electric/propane, propane only...
Don't make the gasoline mistake of designing all cars to operate the same. Clean the planet through various solutions, and keep enjoying your oldies.
ChevyDave
Intermediate Driver

Aside from my personal concerns over the National Power Grid’s ability to deal with the increased demand vehicular electrification will place on it, where will the increased generation come from and what will it do greenhouse gas levels? Electrical generation is already the country’s second largest source of greenhouse gases ( https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions ), so unless we can start bringing-in Solar and Wind at competitive prices, we’ll either be swapping tailpipe emissions for smokestack emissions or paying a lot more for the electricity that powers much more than just the millions of new cars we’re talking about.
hyperv6
Gearhead

We have enough electricity now but there are areas that need grid work. EV cars or not these areas need grid work.

 

Note also these needs are going to take place over 10-20 years. In this time the grid will be updated where needed and chargers will be installed for cars that will charge faster and have longer ranges. 

As for emissions the automakers really don’t care as that is someone else’s issue. They are just looking for a way to meet regulations and not add thousands more to the price to make ICE legal. 

Time to deal with the reality vs the web fantasy. Like I stated before prepare yo defend your collector car. They can do something as simple as tax it to where you can no longer afford it. 

petersalt
Intermediate Driver

Ok, hyperv6, your semi-hyping for EVs is getting boring. (I retired from a career in electric generation/distribution, so I'm SOMEWHAT aware of things.)
1) 'areas .. need grid work..'? Only EVERY subdivision in Ca, Or, Wa & Az (and most other states) will blow a transformer when 5 homes on one block plug in their daily-driven FomoTesladilliacs at dinnertime while the home HVACs and kitchens are busy. The generation/grid capacity is NOT currently available for that, and your monthly electric service billing will look more like a luxo-car note to pay for the necessary capacity fixes (if it HAS to be available at a date-certain soon .. like 2030).
2) Current ICE thermal efficiency approaches 40% on average, as high as 50% in some new vehicles. Most recharging of EVs will be occurring at night, when solar cell and wind generation have minimized; recharging will depend on either nuclear, coal, oil, natural gas or hydropower generation. The geniuses on the US's West and East coasts have almost succeeded in decommissioning all of their nuclear power plants, mostly because of (literal) hysteria. The thermal efficiency of lately-designed combined cycle gas-turbines approaches 65% .. BUT 20 to 30% of the energy will be lost in distribution and voltage transformation. SO .. until reliable and dispatchable non-fossil fueled generation is developed (wind/solar ARE not generally considered dispatchable or reliable) our EVs will be largely but inefficiently fueled by fossil fuels.
just sayin'
petersalt
Intermediate Driver
Gary_Bechtold
Instructor

Strip mining the planet is so good for the environment. (/Sarcasm) I'm sure our benevolent political class thought of that when they started putting these plans/ideas in place. I'm sure the countries who are being strip mined for the precious materials needed to make batteries will appreciate the environmental destruction where they live. I'm also sure the Political class will not suffer any ill effects you and I might because they will exempt themselves from anything that might inconvenience themselves. But for the good of planet you must suffer!

I'm not opposed to electric cars but batteries do not seem to be the way forward and just create more environmental waste that needs to be processed. Also the electric grid here in Texas couldn't handle the cold and just gave up. I at least had three different cars I could use thanks to gas power that I could use as a generator to power my mobile phone, have working heat, get to somewhere else, etc. Can you imagine plugging thousands (millions) on that same grid to charge up? Can you imagine electric cars not being able to charge in the cold and then their batteries die (probably voiding a warranty too). This rush to forced electricity is a terrible idea. Let the market decide. Let both coexist and then the transition will happen naturally or not at all if electric remains the inferior in terms of fueling and longevity.

Who here wants to have their car become essentially disposable like their cell phone does?  Your gas powered car has an xx gallon gas tank in it. 25, 50, 80, etc. years down the road it still does. Yet the electric car's batteries degrade with use (especially with supercharging). What is their capacity 5 years, 10 years, etc. down the road? It won't be what it was on Day 1. Hydrogen or something else will be a better way to go electric.

 

Porsche is working on a synthetic fuel to keep the Internal combustion engine going...

https://www.dw.com/en/porsche-to-produce-fuel-as-clean-as-electric-vehicles/a-56787413

I'm going to be the white haired uncle from Rush's "Red Barchetta" sooner than I think.