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Hagerty
Hagerty Employee

Avoidable Contact #93: What if you held a mandatory EV party and nobody came? | Hagerty Media

Start with this: Moore's Law was never a law. It wasn't even a theory. Didn't even make it to hypothesis grade. This is what it was: bunk. If you've never heard of Moore's Law, no worries. We'll get back to it in a moment.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/opinion/avoidable-contact/avoidable-contact-93-what-if-you-held-a-mand...
179 REPLIES 179
spark123
Detailer

When you say greenhouse gasses you mean water vapor?? Cuz this whole CO2 pollution is a bunch of b.s.. Water vapor is way more of a greenhouse gas than CO2. We should eliminate all water!!!
brians356
Detailer

Then you have CO2 being classified as a greenhouse gas.

 

Worse. EPA classifies CO2 as a "toxic pollutant".

spark123
Detailer

Everyone must stop breathing at once!
gli48
Pit Crew

Wow, I spent 27years working in nuclear power but I'd love to come out of retirement to work in unicorn or rainbow power!!
Grafonola
New Driver

"I was around when everyone had to switch from R12 to R134a because R12 was bad for the environment. Now we are being told R134a is bad and have to switch to R1234yf. The patent for R12 expired around the time we switched to R134a."

 

Thomas Midgley synthesized Dichlorodifluoromethane (Freon-12) in 1930.  He applied for a patent almost immediately.  That patent had expired by 1951.  Freon-12 was in common use for a full forty years after the expiration of this patent.  

 

I call Poppycock!

NITRO450EXP
Instructor

Love the DUNE Reference, One of my Fav's
Nitro
MikeSS
Intermediate Driver

As a Servo Systems engineer for over 40 years, what I have never seen is the true cost to the environment when everyone has to have a charging station at their house to charge the two or three cars they would have. This means the cost to produce the electricity, the infrastructure to support all those charging stations, the maintenance for the infrastructure, as well as the cost to fabricate the batteries, the cost to mine all the materials (which by the way includes the rare earth magnets that is available to the US from a not so friendly country, which are used in everything from starter motors to power window motors). I know some will say that it is worth it o save us from running out of oil, but if we have a mix of fully electric vehicles, hybrid (gas motor/electric powered vehicles) as well as full ICE vehicles, that will substantially make the environment better overall at a much lower cost to the consumer.
brians356
Detailer

I know some will say that it is worth it to save us from running out of oil

 

They're not saying that. They're trying to save the planet from globull warming. They'd be happy if we ran out of oil.

Figgy308
Intermediate Driver

As an enthusiast Jack you probably care more about what's under the hood than 97% of motorists. The proof is the proliferation of Camry's. Those owners don't particularly care what the motor is doing, just so long as it does it and the light come on when you open the door.

Sure range anxiety is a thing, but it is generally overblown in comparison to the actual miles driven per day. However there are other advantages such as connecting your car to the grid and using it as a battery which provides grid stability and drives down the cost of electricity (you would also get $ for selling at peak periods). Another for most people is step off. As ev's have 100% torque from the start, no waiting for the peak rev point. So they get the zippiness that people love.

Companies are still going to want halo cars, Corvettes, Mustangs etc. and the challenge for them is to design in some point of difference. With a lower front profile due to the lack of a tall engine it changes the packaging and the batteries offer an improvement in the CoG in all vehicles, which would be a massive bonus for the rollover keen SUVs.

Now I don't own an EV and there are some downsides such as how clean the electricity is, but it isn't all doom and gloom. Plus there will be more gas left for the old cars as we may never run out.
brians356
Detailer

range anxiety is a thing, but it is generally overblown in comparison to the actual miles driven per day. 

 

I take it you don't live in the wide-open West, or have to drive 700 miles across the sparse western interior to visit an aging parent. Without efficient ICE cars, people in the West will largely be tethered hamstrung.

CitationMan
Instructor

Spot on brians356. Last year I made many 700 mile trips from the Midwest to my new home in the Southeast. Time spent at gas stations each trip was less than 10 minutes on sub 11 hour trips. There’s no electric vehicle that could do that. Plus I was stuck a few times on Interstates for long periods of time in sparsely populated areas due to construction or accidents.

Are you supposed to flatbed your EV somewhere when it dies?

Good luck with that. Commenters who say to just enjoy stopping to charge your EV on your leisurely road trip just don’t get the reality of the full range of how vehicles are used.

spoom
Technician

Good points. For 80%~90% of the time, I'd be fine with an EV, even on a motorcycle. BUT for the times when I WOULDN'T be able to, nobody will want to be the person who had anything to do with making my other vehicles unable to be refilled or at a punitive cost. They problem with punitive measures against innocent people is that when they finally snap... 

brians356
Detailer

Are you supposed to flatbed your EV somewhere when it dies?

 

No, a Best Buy store will recycle it for free. 😉

 

spoom
Technician

There has never been a real risk of running out of gas, the risk is people turning the gas off for political reasons.

JGMan
Intermediate Driver

Damn Jack! Pretty harsh delivery of the cold, hard science. I liked it a lot, and plan to share it. While you are up on the soapbox, would you mind informing everyone that the 94.5% immunity provided by "the vaccine" only lasts about 6-8 months. Oh, I'm still getting my shots (I don't have tin-foil on my head) and like you I'm hoping the medical research science AND the battery technology arrives in time!

Jack_Hagerty
Moderator

They'd take my soapbox away for mentioning it in an article, but given how much research has recently been done to suggest that RNA is, in fact, the primary storage mechanism for long-term memory.... I'm not anxious to inject a lot of RNA into my body, unless it contains highly accurate memories of dating Kate Winslet!
spoom
Technician

She still asks me about you...

brians356
Detailer

Not since she met me.

spoom
Technician

So, she's willing to drop the restraining order and return my Harry Nilsson record?

HillTopRodShop
Pit Crew

Funny, this is the 2nd time I've heard about these RNA details this week and the last time, it was from a RN Nurse that was explaining to me why he wasn't getting it.
86
Intermediate Driver

Lots of pushback but little in the way of solutions from those doing the pushing. We're approaching the redline and risk blowing the engine if we don't find a means to reduce greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Like wearing a mask this is an issue that requires one to put aside their politics and do what's in the best interest of everybody. We went to the moon over 50 yrs ago! We can - and must - find a means to deal with global warming/climate change before it's too late.
Jack_Hagerty
Moderator

I have an easy solution, and it goes a little something like this:
Stop building coal plants immediately, and switch every existing coal plant in the world to nuclear within 20 years.

China started 184 coal plants in 2020. ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FOUR.
Shutter them all. And shutter the American ones, too. Replace them with breeder reactors. That way we can also make awesome space-based nuclear weapons.

Imagine if we had discovered this anthropogenic climate menace, which I am still not personally convinced is anything other than a lack of significant digits in historical temperature data, back in 1955. I can tell you what we would have done: some sort of massive carbon capture program like the Manhattan Project or the interstate highways. Every ten miles you'd see some giant solar-powered machine sucking CO2 out of the air. We'd wind up going too far and killing all the plants or something.

We're not the same country that went to the moon. If you want to know why, fire up a time machine and attend a day of elementary school anywhere in this country back in 1947, then attend that same school today.
Exsanguinator
Intermediate Driver

Have to say your last paragraph, spot on.
86
Intermediate Driver

The issue is too serious for sarcasm, Jack. If the consensus of the scientific community doesn’t count for much to you and your ICE compatriots then consider the research done by the oil cos. that show they were aware of the impact of CO2 emissions on the climate decades ago. Some of the replies after yours smack of a flat-earther mentality. To those who make  specious denials based more on opinion than fact, or claim that there’s no proof, I say, that considering the consequences wouldn’t it be better to err on the side of caution? 

CitationMan
Instructor

86,
For some perspective, Chicago was under a mile of ice from the Wisconsin Glacier until 13,000 years ago, a mere blip in time on our 4.5 billion year old planet. No need to worry about the climate, the Earth’s got this covered.
Shorter version: “Man plans, God laughs”
ModelT
Detailer

I remember when all of Illinois was part of an ocean. Chicago was a safe place to walk after dark back then.
86
Intermediate Driver

So, your perspective is the Earth’s natural systems regulate the climate and human activity doesn’t matter. I’d call that wishful thinking.  

brians356
Detailer

You must believe that mere best guesses about future climate qualify as scientific theories. Hunches are not even testable hypotheses. There's no proof that humans affect global climate at all. The planet has swung wildly between glaciers and tropical jungles for millions of years. Climate science has become politicized. You can take your fingers out of your ears now, I'm finished.

86
Intermediate Driver

Based on what you said I think you’re the one who’s had their fingers in their ears. 

spark123
Detailer

You do realize that the sun radiates the earth each hour 430 quintillion joules of energy.
That energy is mostly in the form of heat. The warming of the earth is unavoidable unless something blocks the energy from getting to the earth. Greenhouse gases, dust, smoke etc. If you were to look back in prehistoric times the earth was a hot lush place where polar ice caps did not exist and the earth's water levels were considerably higher than today. So much so that the great lakes were one massive lake. By the way during this time CO2 levels in the atmosphere were very high during this period. Then some sort of event occurred most likely a meteor strike which blocked the sun's energy from the sun and the earth became very cold. The polar ice caps were formed. Eventually this disturbance subsided and the earth started to warm again. This is the portion of the earth's cycle that we are in now. Face it. You could stop all artificial CO2 emissions and the earth will continue to warm. In fact CO2 is not a cause of global warming it is an EFFECT OF GLOBAL WARMING.
Did you ever try to search as to how the CO2 causes global warming? You won't find any proof. The only statements that you will find is that as the earth warms CO2 is rising in the atmosphere.
86
Intermediate Driver

The burning of fossil fuels affects the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. That’s a scientific fact whether you recognize it as such or not. I’m not saying that it’s the only source of CO2, it’s just the one that we have the most control of. To say that CO2 is not a cause but rather an effect of global warming inverts the correlation of global warming and rising CO2 levels in a way that makes me curious about your research as I’ve yet to see anything that supports such a claim. 

spoom
Technician

"We're approaching the redline and risk blowing the engine". Actually, we're not. Straw argument. Not interested.

86
Intermediate Driver

It’s obvious you’re not interested as you have nothing to say except make the erroneous claim that saying CO2 emissions contribute to climate change is a “straw argument.”

spark123
Detailer

So, have you done your due diligence and how and why these greenhouse gasses are causing global warming???

If you had. You would have discovered that the only mention is that CO2 levels are going up as temperatures go up. Not very conclusive!
If you do some more research you will discover that during prehistoric times when the earth was hot and lush CO2 levels were also elevated.
This points more so that CO2 levels are effected by global warming not the other way around!
The hard fact is there are too many people on this planet and it is ever increasing!
86
Intermediate Driver

You’re not saying anything that you didn’t already say in your previous message, i.e. your cart before the horse explanation. The hard fact is that human activity - specifically the burning of fossil fuels - contributes to global warming. If you have research to the contrary please share it with the scientific community who I trust has done their due diligence. 

72stang
New Driver

I am old enough to remember the push for hydrogen as a fuel source for cars to solve the so called “greenhouse crisis.” They would actually be safer than the gas powered or EV powered cars, as hydrogen is lighter than air and would dissipate rapidly in an accident unlike gas powered cars and would not spontaneously combust like EV cars. However, the infrastructure required to fuel these vehicles was a deal breaker. The EV cars face the same problem.
Zephyr
Advanced Driver

I am old enough to remember when the big concern was the coming ice age.
jaysalserVW
Detailer

I keep wondering how mankind is going to achieve the goal of All EV--at any date! And touting "Zero Emissions." But in order to have all EV--we are talking about The Result of Fossil Fuel Employment. Nothing about EVs derives from the very energy which is touted to be sustainable. When you think about it--how many of the huge machines mining those rare-earth particles, to make those very special batteries, are running on "sourced sustainable energy"? None of them. In order to make EV purely sustainable, I'd expect millions of naked humans out there using their bare hands to mine that rare earth and having to eat dirt as food. Maybe that would be closer to "sustainable energy"? When all fossil fuels are banned. Am I missing something?
spoom
Technician

When they get rid off all the gas stations, will the left just supply their, "peaceful protesters" with RPGs?

BMD4800
Instructor

This overlooks the obvious short-term and most scalable solution: plug-in ICE Hybrids.


Now, we are rejecting charging losses at this point, but fast chargers induce a massive amount of heat in the batteries, so we’ll need some sort of aux cooling system to connect while plaid-charging. Science will get that too.

EV battery is a brick? Well, you’re buying a battery, or a diesel generator on a trailer.

Hybrid battery pack is dead? Meh, software locks out the motor (gas drive only mode) and the third owner used it like a regular vehicle.
drhino
Instructor

Baruth for Transportation Secretary!

I worked for 36 years in a highly regulated industry. When new regulations hit, it was easy to see what was intended; but the folks putting them into law didn’t know the business. The unintended consequences usually included huge burdensome changes to processes/systems. This essentially was a barrier to needed competition; and squeezed margins to the point that cost cutting and worse service resulted. So, I’ve always wondered if there are dark conspiracies behind some of this stuff; or are we giving them too much credit for intelligence assuming that.
spoom
Technician

Stolen from elsewhere:
One crisp winter morning in Sweden, a cute little girl named Greta woke up to a perfect world, one where there were no petroleum products ruining the earth. She tossed aside her cotton sheet and wool blanket and stepped out onto a dirt floor covered with willow bark that had been pulverized with rocks. “What’s this?” she asked.
“Pulverized willow bark,” replied her fairy godmother.
“What happened to the carpet?” she asked.
“The carpet was nylon, which is made from butadiene and hydrogen cyanide, both made from petroleum,” came the response.
Greta smiled, acknowledging that adjustments are necessary to save the planet, and moved to the sink to brush her teeth where instead of a toothbrush, she found a willow, mangled on one end to expose wood fibre bristles.
“Your old toothbrush?” noted her godmother, “Also nylon.”
“Where’s the water?” asked Greta.
“Down the road in the canal,” replied her godmother, ‘Just make sure you avoid water with cholera in it”
“Why’s there no running water?” Greta asked, becoming a little peevish.
“Well,” said her godmother, who happened to teach engineering at MIT, “Where do we begin?” There followed a long monologue about how sink valves need elastomer seats and how copper pipes contain copper, which has to be mined and how it’s impossible to make all-electric earth-moving equipment with no gear lubrication or tires and how ore has to be smelted to a make metal, and that’s tough to do with only electricity as a source of heat, and even if you use only electricity, the wires need insulation, which is petroleum-based, and though most of Sweden’s energy is produced in an environmentally friendly way because of hydro and nuclear, if you do a mass and energy balance around the whole system, you still need lots of petroleum products like lubricants and nylon and rubber for tires and asphalt for filling potholes and wax and iPhone plastic and elastic to hold your underwear up while operating a copper smelting furnace and . . .
“What’s for breakfast?” interjected Greta, whose head was hurting.
"Fresh, range-fed chicken eggs,” replied her godmother. “Raw.”
“How so, raw?” inquired Greta.
“Well, . . .” And once again, Greta was told about the need for petroleum products like transformer oil and scores of petroleum products essential for producing metals for frying pans and in the end was educated about how you can’t have a petroleum-free world and then cook eggs. Unless you rip your front fence up and start a fire and carefully cook your egg in an orange peel like you do in Boy Scouts. Not that you can find oranges in Sweden anymore.
“But I want poached eggs like my Aunt Tilda makes,” lamented Greta.

“Tilda died this morning,” the godmother explained. “Bacterial pneumonia.”
“What?!” interjected Greta. “No one dies of bacterial pneumonia! We have penicillin.”
“Not anymore,” explained godmother “The production of penicillin requires chemical extraction using isobutyl acetate, which, if you know your organic chemistry, is petroleum-based. Lots of people are dying, which is problematic because there’s not any easy way of disposing of the bodies since backhoes need hydraulic oil and crematoriums can’t really burn many bodies using as fuel Swedish fences and furniture, which are rapidly disappearing - being used on the black market for roasting eggs and staying warm.”
This represents only a fraction of Greta’s day, a day without microphones to exclaim into and a day without much food, and a day without carbon-fibre boats to sail in, but a day that will save the planet.
Tune in tomorrow when Greta needs a root canal and learns how Novocain is synthesized.

ModelT
Detailer

I'd rather date a toothless naked Greta and frolic together foraging for berries than eat fast food in Illinois while freezing my behind. After all, some fairy tales can come true.

Made up randomly by me.
spoom
Technician

Sorry, Model T. Protected species like Greta won't even answer your toothless phone call.

HillTopRodShop
Pit Crew

Great & entertaining article Jack. I read everything you write...but not your Jodie Foster, ha! My favorite is still:
He was a local to Gingerman Raceway, born and raised in western Michigan near the lake. He knew the track and he knew the surface. But he underestimated the speed of the new Lotus Evora 400. Perhaps he mistook it for the previous model, the 345-horsepower Evora S that took the win against the 991-generation Porsche 911 Carrera S PDK in our May 2013 test. Or he just didn't think that the new 400-horsepower car had the grip and the power to get to Turn 5 as quickly as it did. But he was wrong, and that mistake killed him. I was there, and I saw it happen....
Folks, read JAck's article:
The Lotus Evora 400 is the Truth
You won't regret it.
HillTopRodShop
Pit Crew

I should have proof read my post...correction:
"I read everything you write...but you're not my Jodie Foster, ha!"
Jack_Hagerty
Moderator

I'm not even sure Jodie Foster is anyone's Jodie Foster nowadays!
Ragster
Intermediate Driver

This EV -ICE friggen cars drive me crazy along w/the "tree huggers" that are WAGGING the tail of the dog ! Full on electric is only good for a "town car " getting groceries and short runs in your local area. The cost of getting this tech. & batteries......costs MORE than what people & the world may save.! Gas powered vehicles are getting better mileage every year..the only thing I wonder about ..is why we NEED /want LARGER /taller pick up trucks.......is it a status thing with the millennials ?
HeatMiser
New Driver

before the MOTOR LAW?? Never would have though this song would come true.
I will be take guy taking the GASSER out on an illegal run, if I can still find the gas!

My uncle has a country place
That no one knows about
He says it used to be a farm
Before the Motor Law...
Rush - Red barchetta
Mainbearing
New Driver

You should delve more into the fact that the EV vs. ICE issue will be divided along partisan political lines making it even more difficult for manufacturers to come up with a winning strategy as the political pedulum swings every four years.