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Hagerty
Hagerty Employee

Aftermarket diesel exhaust companies to pay $1.6M fine, Alonso to Aston F1, MG teases EV roadster

Intake: Red Deer Exhaust Inc. and Thunder Diesel & Performance Company are on the hook for a $1.6 million fine and must stop selling products that bypass vehicle emissions control systems in violation of EPA regulations, following a 2018 investigation.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/the-manifold/2022-08-02/
27 REPLIES 27
Snailish
Engineer

First they took the diesel exhausts, then the ICE engines, by the time they took my steering wheel there was nothing left of the cars I had known...


^hyperbole... sure.

I'm not a diesel fan to be honest, but the reach of punishing a company for making a device that can be used to break a law is a really interesting slope. "Not for street use" and "check local laws" disclaimers should be sufficient.

Granted I am foggy if the devices were considered an illegal product (could they be sold for offroad use only or not?). That changes the company liability piece quite a bit.

The lawbreaker to me is the person using said device on the street. Not like the diesel rule breakers aren't a bit obvious at times...
hyperv6
Collector

When selling items like this you must have a disclaimer and ask if it is for off road use or prior to a specific date. If not asked or improperly asked it can result in millions in fines. 

It is bad now and the EPA is working to make things worse. 

The day may be coming if your collector car is missing any emission item you may be required to put it back on. 

Pay attention to the RPM act as it may slow some of the other stuff they want to push.

Snailish
Engineer

They fine people all the time around here for missing emissions stuff. 

 

If they knew more about the older cars, they would fine more.

 

Growth business in making 70s-80s systems?

BMD4800
Engineer

Yeah, they asked me about my missing diesel car once. DOT enforcement when I was pulling an empty trailer. I said “didn’t have one then.” He argued, I keep my emissions sheet with me, says right in it Catalyst: N/A.
BMD4800
Engineer

Don’t just blame the EPA.

NADA and the Auto Manufacturers. If you can keep your old (gremlin) on the road, you aren’t buying a new or used car to keep demand for new cars elevated.

I had a long discussion with the DEQ over this exact fact and demonstrated that on the IM240 test, g/mi NOT ppm, the air pump had ZERO impact on tailpipe emissions.
Test one, no belt on the pump. Passed tail pipe, failed visual. Test two, belt installed (in the parking lot), same day, within 15 minutes of the first test. Almost identical tailpipe reading, passed. Idiocy event 1.

Idiocy event 2. Catalyzed full-sized GM land yacht with a 400 cube Pontiac. Idle 0.00, 30mph cruise 0.00. Retest on a different sampler with a different hose. 0.01, 0.00. They looked and scratched, checked all over. Car was stock. Finally they passed me. Every mile I drove, I made the air better.

Idiocy event 3. 3rd Gen Camaro passed emissions but in the upper 1/2-1/3 of the limit. When replacing the exhaust - prior owner had punched out the cat. Nothing was in there. No cat guts, still ran clean.

The EPA can complain anout rollin coal, I get it. That was obnoxious.
hyperv6
Collector

My buddy ran his Viper through with no cats and it passed the tail pipe and visual as they had no idea what to look for. 

Auto mfgs are not really involved here. They have enough to worry about on new car emissions and CAFE numbers that keep getting more difficult to meet. That is why they are moving EV. 

Rolling coal is just an excuse they are after so much more.

 

funny how they demand better mpg but are killing the Diesels.

Oldroad1
Gearhead

But there should have been an active MIL and service code for inefficient catalyst performance. Unless he lives in a state that ignores check engine lights.
BMD4800
Engineer

Auto manufacturers aren’t involved?    Come on, man…

 

planned obsolescence has been around for nearly 100 years.  It is well documented and inappropriately applied to GM.  Even though they did engage in it.  

We are moving to EV to better manage the National fleet.  When the average age of a motor vehicle is 12 years, there a lot of sales opportunity there.   

lease pay options on EVs generate a net perpetual payment.  

demanding better mileage and lower emissions just bit them all after the NHTSA sled was increased to 4,200 lbs.  

TimK
Advanced Driver

If a vehicle comes to my shop with missing or obviously altered emissions devices, unless they want to restore it to factory original or equivalent, I send them down the road. I'm not taking the chance of working on it and it is later found in some sort of inspection to have missing or altered emission devices after I worked on it and having the feds knock on my door even though I didn't make the alteration. However there is a difference when the emission devices are unavailable such as the rotted out pipes from the smog pump for my 87 Corvette.
Ranger240
Intermediate Driver

First off, rolling coal is lame.

The fed gov has also gone recently after race/offroad-use exhaust manifold makers for modern gas engines (think Ford Coyotes). They wants to put a kibosh on people doing restomods i.e. LS and Coyotes in old stuff.
Flyin Miata doesn't do V8 swaps anymore due to compliance risk. Each V8 miata makes a polar bear cry.

The goal is to enforce required emissions equipment based on the year of engine manufacture, whereas previously across most states it was mostly done based on what's required of the chassis.

the new low production replica rules requires "replica" cars to meet current emissions standards. no downdraft Webers in your new fake 250GTO, sry bro.

Some New England states are getting sandy about the registration of 25+ year old JDM cars due to crash safety and emissions arguments.

My take is more states start will adopt Cali-crazy 100% stock emissions equipment (or CARB-compliant parts) for everything post 1975. Once that happens, the party is over. But gosh darnit, we're in crisis and classic car drivers are part of the problem. Shame on us. Nevermind that modern upgrades such as EFI on stuff like Jeep CJ7s LOWER emissions vs the stock setup. Shut up and get a Tesla.

You could have found a better picture for the EPA part of the story. Some bro-dozer rolling coal or something? All those vehicles in the pic were not diesels and probably a cold day .

While I'm not big on defeating emissions I don't care for the EPA at all. It's goals are political and not "environmental". It ultimately doesn't want you to do anything to your vehicle.
Hagerty Fan
Not applicable

Having solved all the world's other problems...

Tinkerah
Engineer

They could've kept getting away with squeezing some more power or efficiency out of diesels at the expense of fewer emissions but let's be frank: it has nothing to do with power or efficiency. They think rolling coal is an expression of freedom (it is) and that it's cool (it's not) and that act has finally outraged enough of the populace to instigate federal action, as heavy handed as it is.
hyperv6
Collector

This is much deeper than just rolling coal. 

These people want all things banned and modifications stopped even if the vehicle can still pass the tail pipe sniff.

 

The are even going after car back exhaust in several CARB states. 

They are going after fuel jugs and cans if not CARB approved. 

even if your air pump is rotted off and not available they don’t care they want it off the road.

 

They are after amateur racing for any mods even if the cars  are only doing 1/4 mile runs and never street driven. 

If you are not watching the EPA you had better start now. They can not and should not be trusted.

Alfanorth
Intermediate Driver

So all the neanderthal coal rollers will now have to breath fresh air with the rest of us.
Poor things.
GoFaster
Detailer

I put 2-chamber Flowmaster Series 40 mufflers on my Crown Vic Police Interceptor. Is the EPA going to hunt me down?
Hagerty Fan
Not applicable

Dear God, is the drone killing you yet? I've got a pair of Delta 50's on an actual-dual-exhaust, late-1990's 4.6 T-bird and it's a bit ridiculous how loud the car is.

BMD4800
Engineer

No tailpipe. It makes a difference in the tone.
Hagerty Fan
Not applicable

Mine are also installed at the end, under the bumper. This system was previously on a 302-powered earlier Thunderbird, but I could barely hear them. 

I think that the youngest son has both of us beat, however, as he's running a dual 2 1/4" into a single 3" with a 20-inch glass pack and turnout right in front of the passenger rear wheel. 

"Obnoxious" is a good starting point.

BMD4800
Engineer

That’s a bold loudener system there.  

I remember back in the day something about stand-off with chambered mufflers and no tailpipe.   

I have under the rear seat traditional mounting and with tailpipes (not dual 3”) it isn’t bad.  

Turn downs or dual 3”, are a bit much.   

your car is too disruptive and loud, they said.   Oh yeah, yer old, As I can barely hear the sound of my 50s knocking at the door over my exhaust induced tinnitus. 

Billthecat707
Instructor

I directly attribute some of my hearing loss to the 40 Series on my 360 Duster. It sounded like I was inside the muffler.
hyperv6
Collector

Some New England states and New York. 

In New York they are working to nail anything louder than factory. 

in the NE states are targeting any aftermarket exhaust. 

Like I said beware people with agendas are after your hobby.

BMD4800
Engineer

Seems like the forces are aligning once again.
I guess pick sides kids.

Yesterday it was smoking, today diesel emissions, tomorrow barbecues. Just wait.
Snailish
Engineer

right after barbeques will be the constant carbon emitting of pets.

 

Then houseplants, so evil in the dark.

BMD4800
Engineer

We laugh because the truth is too depressing.  

Maestro1
Technician

First of all never trust the Government about anything. Next, no one should deliberately smogging up
the atmosphere. Next, teaser ads are nonsense. For those of us who can read without moving our
lips stop trying to do a poor job of creating buzz in the marketplace and simply release the MG and stop all the playing around. It's a great idea. Either build it or move on. Without the nonsense.
2004JAGxj8
Intermediate Driver

If China is involved with the new MG I don't want anything to do with it.