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Hagerty
Hagerty Employee

5 cars losing ground in a strong market

For over two years, we've discussed at length the huge gains in the collector car market. While most vehicles continue to increase in value or at least hold steady, a handful have taken a step back.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/5-cars-losing-ground-in-a-strong-market/
96 REPLIES 96
plank
Detailer

I'm probably a little older than most that read and post here, so I remember when the Superbird hit the marketplace. IMHO, it was butt ugly then and it's still butt ugly. I've never understood why this vehicle with a bolt on nose cone and useless, gawdy rear spoiler commands such outrageous prices. Gimme a break.....
sixtieskid
Intermediate Driver

I would suggest reading the Chrysler wind tunnel tests regarding the "useless, gaudy rear spoiler". Although not very useful for a street version,  the physics behind the nose cone and wing ( not spoiler ) cannot be denied. During the Aero Wars of the late 60's and early 70's, the wing cars could not lose due specifically to the nose cone and wing. It was all about the aerodynamics. Also suggested reading is: NASCAR Homologation Rules.  Wkiipedia: In racing series that are "production-based", meaning that the vehicles entered in the series are based on production vehicles for sale to the public, homologation not only requires compliance with a racing series's technical guidelines (for example engine displacement, chassis construction, suspension design and such), but often includes minimum levels of sales of that model to the public, to ensure that no vehicles in the competition have been designed and produced solely for racing. Since such vehicles are primarily intended for the race track, practical use on public roads is generally a secondary design consideration, so long as government regulations are met.

Fieroman3
Intermediate Driver

The actual race cars add ons were tweaked and had not much in common with the street cars. Even the materials used were very different. And we all know that the rules were very "slack" at he time. As long a tthe race cars looked somewhat like thestreet cars, it was OKed.
plank
Detailer

Well thanks for your suggestion professor NASCAR. I could read everything ever written about NASCAR and my opinion won't change. That's one butt ugly, grossly overpriced machine with bolt on body parts that are completely useless for street use.
Tinkerah
Engineer

All true except it's beautiful.
Fieroman3
Intermediate Driver

I'm probably of your age too and I share your thoughts about that horrific birdy.
Yes, "t was butt ugly then and it's still butt ugly." 👍
Tinkerah
Engineer

I wasn't yet driving when they were new but I've always lusted for them. Part race car, part fighter plane!
MustangJim
Technician

LOL, I must be your age. My first thoughts we're what the hell is that ! I understand the reasons, NASCAR, etc... I just always thought it was ugly. Funny story and of course would be seen as blasphemous by collectors today. There was a kid who lived near me from a weatlthy family. His parents bought him a new superbird, he pulled the nose and spoiler off and made a regular roadrunner out of it. I wonder what he did with that original front clip.
plank
Detailer

77 years young here Jim. I work every day, enjoy my cars, trucks and Crown Royal Rare 18-year-old. Good story about the kid you knew back in the day.
MustangJim
Technician

I'm not quite there yet, 68 ,still working and enjoying life also!!! Keep going!!!

Padgett
Instructor

Monte Carlo does not surprise me for same reason did not buy one in1970: no real performance version. I've had Grand Prixs with Muncies (69-71) . but MC only had a Saginaw with a small block, big block could only be ordered with an automagic.
Problem with a 2002 is it is not a 2002ti or tii or even a touring. Not fast for what was supposed to be an upscale car. Can say that the base BMWs in '70 had reliability issues and were hard to steer.. Wife had a '70 2000A and every close curb meant a new AC pulley.
Padgett
Instructor

ps Alpha: how can you take any car, other than the very small/cheap, seriously with four bolt wheels ?

Fieroman3
Intermediate Driver

Cause at the time, European and Japanese cars were lightweiths by design.
Only heavy American or German big cars had 5 lugnuts.
Padgett
Instructor

Like a Fiero ? Think part of the reason was that many of the European sports cars (like Maserati) were dipping into the FIAT parts bin.

Of course I have never understood French 3 bolt wheels.

 

ps back in my autocross daze I broke A Lot of 13x6 Vega GT 4 bolt wheels. Usually a right front every weekend.

Tinkerah
Engineer

Padgett, breaking wheels fascinates me. In my decades of reckless idiocy I have lost wheels, broken lug studs, had blowouts at highway speeds, even caught a tire on fire on the Mass. Turnpike but have only managed to bend a few wheels, never broken any. I can't even imagine the tire performance it would take to do this repeatedly. Please elaborate: were the centers failing around the lugs? Welds failing at the rim/center joint?

Padgett
Instructor

Usually I'd crack the hubs into the lug nut holes, shall we just say the car always won but the driver sometimes lost. Over time I broke the suspension mounts, saginaw trannys, posi rear axles and pushed the clutch through the firewall.
For more info see here.

ps once was passed by a rear tire (GM 10 bolt), does that count ?

 

Fieroman3
Intermediate Driver

Yep, I do own my precious 1988 Fiero GT, for the last 30 years. Previously, I owned 2 2M4 basic models to commute, which it was it's purpose, definitely NOT a sports car as too many thought. But, in 1987, when I read about the major improvements the Pontiac guys did, I HAD to have one. After 5 years of searching and seeing so many POS, I found a pristine one with 27k km, about 12k miles.

BTW, the French 3 lug nuts go back to post-war 11 recovery. Those were tough years. But they needed cars. And the gas was very expensive. They had to scrim nuts and bolts, steel was a rarety. That's why Citroën came up with the legendary 2CV. Cheap to build, simple to maintain and tough as a nail. Yes, slow as a snail !

As for Autocrossing a VEGA (!!) you were an adventurous driver ! 😳 Made good timings ?

Greg_I
Hagerty Employee

@Padgett I think that’s a bit of a stretch. The LS5 454 was ordered in plenty of Monte Carlos. Sure, they had more basic engine selections than the Grand Prix, but I wouldn’t say they lacked performance options. Besides the lack of a manual doesn’t negate the performance ability of these cars. Nobody would dare argue that an LS5 equipped Chevelle SS with a TH400 wasn’t a performance car.

Padgett
Instructor

Understand, just was deep into long distance road racing at the time and
all of my cars had manual transmissions. Most racers did have automatics on the street but I was always practicing & traffic wasn't heavy then.

Am talking about compared to what else was available in 1970, the MC was kind of a, well, wimp. In 1970 I was Autocrossing a Buick GS with 4 speed, posi, and AC. No MC made (and few Z-28s) could stay with it.

First car was an XK Jaguar (took the cure after nine) but by 67 was deep
into GM and autocrossing a Camaro: 327/4 speed/posi/AC. In fact by '70
one way to tell something really interesting from GM was "N/A with C60".

First with an automagic was a '72 GTO station wagon tow car (400-4bbl,
posi & AC) . Did I mention am a Floridian ?

Padgett

MustangJim
Technician

@Padgett, I get what you are saying , but that is what you we're doing. Automatics we're becoming more and more popular in drag racing and the 454 Monte was a quick car and luxurious. They towed many Camaros' to the track on Sunday and won the stop light races Mon-Fri ( drag racers practice too). I respect your choice of motorports but one more thing...there was never a 72 GTO station wagon. There we're LeMan's with a goat front clip. Pontiac never built or sold a GTO wagon.
Padgett
Instructor

Um err ah well could be. Leave us just say was a GMI student in 1972 and
needed a tow car. Friend said "were running a few in Framington (wagons
and GTO parts on same line). Mine had the 400-4bbl with steel timing
gears and the posi had a rear sway bar and boxed trailing arms. Most
"$41 nose jobs" were 350s. Don't forget in '72 the GTO was an option
package and not a model line.

BTW in the early 70's we had torque peaks and not plateaus, a THM-400
was heavier than a Muncie and had one less gear. Real racers were using
slider clutches. It wasn't really until the 200R4/700R4 came out and
boost became popular in Buicks that automagics came of age. Of course
back then over 1,000 hp took a blown Hemi. The change in IC engines that
has taken place since the '70s is incredible.
ZimmFord60
New Driver

hi Padgett, I see you own 2 Cadillac Allante’s. I purchased a 1990 , and it has NO brakes, have you experienced any brakes problems with yours? Mike

Padgett
Instructor

Allantes before 1993 used a Bosch ABS while most of the rest of GM (and Ford) used the Teves. Both are different from the Powermaster. If you look at a block diagram they are the same and even use Hall effect sensors and have the same working pressures. Most common failure is the 50A pump relay.

See section 5E in the service manual for more. I suspect some of the Facebook groups would be better for this kind of question.

MustangJim
Technician

@Padgett, Big block Monte was only available with an automatic, but you can't say a 454 anything was not high performance. I know it was considered "luxury" at the time but it was a high performance car. Grand Prix was considered a luxury car also, even with the 4 speed.
Padgett
Instructor

I always prefered the term "Sport Coupe", "Luxo-Barges" were something else.  Friends called mine "Asphyiation" because of the tire smoke but that was decades before became popular. Still think "going up in smoke" means "slow".

ps my DD today is a CTS Coupe with 3.73 gear and posi. 6 speed automagic with lockup.

 

Back in the day friends said I could make a Muncie sound like an automatic, loved power shifts (BTW a "good" Muncie has a larger input shaft. Of course most small haft Muncies have littered strips by now.)

Padgett
Instructor

Times were different then. In '70 the only 454 in the MC was the LS5 and part of an SS package. Have heard that the 454 in MCs had 2 bolt mains. Need to dig out my Bill Thomas book.

GP was available with a 455 and Muncie but you did not want a '70 455.

Hagerty Fan
Not applicable

And not one of the five cars listed is literally badged as a "Groundloser"?

That is more undeniable proof that God doesn't have a sarcasm long game.

JBZ
Pit Crew

It is all relative. In 2003 I could have purchased an unmolested 440 Plymouth Superbird for $37,500 from a friend. I did not have the room at the time. As many here have commented I am a lover of cars and the search is part of that love. From the beginning of COVID-19 to now we are seeing crazy run ups on pricing of cars. Even if we see a 20% correction in values downward the recent run up of values still make so many cars unattainable to the average Jane or Joe. I would like to see Hagerty populate some numbers as to the demographics of those of us insured by them. While not in large numbers a good friend who handles large estates is seeing a growing number of liquidations of collections from families that don’t want the auto’s. We are graying, just look around at these shows. Hopefully the generation behind us can afford and nurture this hobby when we start rolling in hover-rounds!
MilesAhead
New Driver

Well then, Hagerty knows how to increase interest in the ones they want to increase in value. There is now interest in ALL these due to this article.
phantom309
New Driver

Well in my opinion, the superbirds look like ricers from another era,. bmw's? meh
monte carlo? well barret is just an easy place for rich guys to get pampered and swap/buy each others cars, its not a yard stick in the real world,. 5%, oh boy lets have a media driven discussion pffft.
pberen
New Driver

Odd, my survey of 2002s sold in the first half of 2022 shows a 2% increase. That is based on 30+ cars sold. Averaging price was $29,834. Average condition is #3. Over the past 5 years, 2002s have increased 164%, or 32% annually
eighthtry
Advanced Driver

I have no interest in salt water cars either. However, I feel certain this would be really boring when one ran out of American cars to review. Besides, there are a bunch of salt water/border cars assembled in this country now. And most American cars now feature many salt water/border parts and, gasp, saltwater/border engineering.

Ummmmm.......
WesTxStoner425
Pit Crew

Why tell us the percentage drop without showing us the old and new price ranges? Lazy reporting.
Greg_I
Hagerty Employee

Thanks for the feedback. I’d point out the weird aesthetic of reporting old and new values that on the page as well as these being an average drop. Some condition levels may have had a larger or smaller change. Instead we hyperlink the page to the Valuation Tools so the reader can dive deeper if they wish.

GlenP
New Driver

Not quite sure I agree with the Monte Carlo numbers. Just how old are your stats/numbers? And how many listings/sales were compared? Condition of referenced cars? Just too many variables to consider over a short period of time.

Just this past May, Mecum sold a ‘70 small block with a four-speed for over 90K and a ‘71 SS for 93.5K. Both cars were heavily documented (Protect-O Plate & Build Sheet) and in #1 - #2 condition. And the only thing I’ve seen over the past several years is these cars climbing in value, even while in the shadows of their Chevelle siblings.

But then again, I’m biased as I own both a fully documented ‘70 and ‘71 SS. And no, I didn’t buy them as investments, I bought them to enjoy. But it is nice to see the Monte Carlo finally getting its due.
Lynn
New Driver

Hurray! I didn’t make the list🤪
Inline8OD
Technician

Is this site about cars or money? If the latter, stick with Kiplinger's or the Wall Street Journal Weekend Edition.

Most of us with nice old cars flinch when we hear the all too common rudeness of "What's sumpin' like that worth?" as if some monetary figure imbues instant understanding of a complex survivor, how and why it was built, its marketplace competitors in the day, its engineering novelty, if any.

Please, enough of this. More about automobiles. And let's park the "muscle cars" for awhile. Station wagon engines in egregious mid-sized Motown tin with trucky rear axle ratios and dopey decals.
Cars, interesting ones,  have been around over 120 years. There were "muscle cars" long before the '33 Terraplane 8:  Chadwick, Lozier, Simplex, Locomobile "speed cars," for example.

 

  Don't tell us "yeah, but" you can't afford one while in the same breath boring people how much dinero you've dumped into a "numbers matching" reskinned Falcon or '67 Camaro which styling a complete crib of the Ferrari Lusso,  just as the '55 Chevy stole the concurrent Prancing Horse's grille.

 

    No, not suggesting you buy a Prancing Horse.    But what do you know about prewar Buicks, Packards, Railtons, Hudsons?   Ever drive a 1936-38 Pierce-Arrow 8 with standard  overdrive?  Or a '40/'41 Chrysler New Yorker with overdrive?   You can buy a Stutz SV16, even DV32, for less than some of these dopey muscle cars.  

 

    Some of us got involved with ancient stuff when we were just out of college, if not before.   Like affordable sports cars with charm?  Try a Riley or Bristol.  Alvis had synchromesh on first gear beginning 1936.

 

  If sheer speed's really your sole interest,  you can open track a retired race car for a relative song.   Spare us the Lamborghini, etc. "super cars" that depreciate like lead weights after a couple years when the  arbitragers, mall developers with need to be seen in the latest thing move on.    Enzo Ferrari's  interest in his street cars was that they funded his  love, racing.  Not one of them rust-proofed and they shared dash switches, etc. with lowly Fiats.  Sure, when fettled, they drive nicely, but not thrice as good as a big Healey, XK-140, Jensen 541.

 

   Trust us.  120 years of automobilia and most of it more affordable than a noisy tin box from the '60s.  Yes, we  know  muscle cars like '69 Chargers w/ 440 SixPak bumper to bumper.

Trust us, they get old.   It's like school.  You're allowed to 1, learn, 2, graduate.

This focus on  lamestream aging mallbrat fare is tedious. Jerking off in front of strangers at a stoplight.  Dumb enough as a teen, but in your 50s or beyond?   Try boner pills.

Wowee zowee.

Padgett
Instructor

Maybe a CTS-V longroof with a 6 speed manual ? Personally like street cars I can park. Do prefer DOHC engines like something from Fred and Augie.

ps my only 4-door is my tow car.

Reinhold_Weege
Instructor

The 440 SixPak option was not available on the Dodge Charger until the 1970 model year.

I thought you'd like to know that. 

Viperdude34
New Driver

In 1974. Campbell ,California on Whire Oaks Rd was a 1970 orange Superbird. 440. Auto for 5,500 dollars,I would had to sell my 2970 442 to buy it. I didn’t buy it becaus I thought it would look. Silly driving threw Jack in the Box, if I didn’t have to sell my 442 and drive it once in a while would have bought it 😐😕
Daniel
Intermediate Driver

The Montreal looks like a Celica.
PhillipinSD
Intermediate Driver

Well I'm not surprised by any of these 5 picks. That Plymouth Superbird is as ugly as it was in 1970 as it is today. And the Alfa Montreal has got to be the ugliest that car that Alfa has ever built. The rest of the cars are so mundane one can barely call collector cars, Yes there are reasons their prices are dropping. I'm surprise that any one would want one.
Smilodon
Instructor

Unless it's a Monte Carlo SS with the 454/TH400, it's not any threat to a bigblock Chevelle SS nor any GTO with a 400/455/LS1/LS3. Nice cars, not race cars.
Scottb
Pit Crew

A bubble is coming and these cars will take a hit, but let’s face it, with the lack of good clean examples the supply and demand system will keep these cars out of most peoples hands!! Look at the price of the new ZO6, 106 thousand!! Remember the price of the first ZO6?? I do because I owned one and like others I have owned I gave it away to get my next daily driver not a garage queen!! 

Rider79
Technician

Of course, nothing I would and/or could buy, except maybe the 1970-72 Monte Carlo - still the best-looking of all Monte generations.
espo70
Instructor

That Montreal is such a gorgeous car. I remember them not that long ago selling for 25-30 grand or less. Cost of ownership related to the fragility and scarcity of a 40 year old Italian sports car kept me away.
SJ
Technician

16%, yeah maybe, 5% 6% 8% doesn't seem like a pertinent statistic.