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Hagerty
Hagerty Employee

5 cars losing ground in a strong market

For over two years, we've discussed at length the huge gains in the collector car market. While most vehicles continue to increase in value or at least hold steady, a handful have taken a step back.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/5-cars-losing-ground-in-a-strong-market/
96 REPLIES 96
Oldroad1
Gearhead

What? No TicTockTach on the SuperBird?
Oldroad1
Gearhead

Was that option only for Dodge?
Ivanpomy
New Driver

Not sure about other makers, but the 71,72and73 AMC Javelins had the tictoc tach as an option
sixtieskid
Intermediate Driver

No - I had a 1970 Roadrunner with a 383 automatic on the floor. There was a 150 MPH speedometer and the Tic-Toc-Tac. Tachometer with a clock in the center; tick-tock......Pretty sure the name was Mopar only. I see many others talking about other makes with a Tic Toc Tac which I think is incorrect. I have seen post's with people claiming Tic Toc Tac being originated by GM but have not seen any supportive evidence. Oldsmobile had a small clock in the instrument cluster below the tach in the guage cluster in the late 60's. Otherwise, my belief is that the Tic Toc Tac was another of Mopar's brilliant marketing names that were so prominent in that era. (Please remember that this is my opinion and not hardcore fact. I could be wrong....)

From YEARONE website: The Tic-Toc-Tachometer is the popular option found on 1968-70 models with a Rallye dash. This reproduction features an original appearance with an integrated clock in the middle and a tachometer around the outside. The clock has been upgraded to quartz mo

NOTE: Will not fit models without the Rallye dash.
Javman
Intermediate Driver

I am not sure which maker originated the tic-toc-tac but the 71+ AMC Javelins did have it as an option included in the Go-pack option package and I believe was standard on the AMX. I know this because my 72 SST had it along with 140 mph speedo and 4 guage cluster.
BryanP
New Driver

I have a 1968 Camaro RS with a factory Tic Toc Tac. For anyone interested there are quartz movement replacement units available to upgrade your old non-functioning clock. Not sure what make & model cars they are available for.
Figgy308
Intermediate Driver

Chrysler became good at stripping those cars down, so things like the clock or tac which had been standard, became options as the years went by. Even the Charger got a bench as standard and you had to option up (read: pay) for buckets in 1970.

Unfortunately a dip in Superbird values would have to just plummet to become "affordable" or "attainable". It seems locked into a stupid money level for the foreseable future.

That Alfa is so gorgeous.
FloridaMarty
Instructor

Wish I could say I am surprised, but I am not. Even with the decline numbers posted, seems like small change compared to where the numbers were and where they are today.
DannyCaz
Pit Crew

Yes, prices are still outrageous, even inflation adjusted. This is not much different than the speculators within the housing industry. Still, it's all related to the non-stop money printing press. If you love a dream car, buy it, no matter what as the fiat money is backed by debt. The more they print, the less you should save and the more you should buy something tangible like gold and silver, of something you admire...like the '67 GTO I'm searching for.
Toms1967GTO
New Driver

DannyCaz, I have a 1967 GTO convertible I am planning on selling. email me at tomcarroll13@verizon.net if interested. Car is in Tampa Bay area. Non numbers matching burgundy mist with black top and interior. TH400 with Hurst dual gate, a nice driver.
BELGUIM1
New Driver

HOW MUCH

hothmob
Intermediate Driver

UUgh, these writers never took a statistics course- either that, or they just love playing on those clickbait keywords and dabbling in some car porn photos. Totally unrealistic data, only to placate the freakishly obtuse teenage emotions still left inside 50+ year old men.

When a vehicle is RARE (which Hagerty only insures 1 or 2, maybe 3), said data points are moot. Good statistics are based on good data. When comparing sales of Ford Mustangs vs. a SuperBird- the data is extremely inaccurate due to the sample size discrepancies. No-one does this in science, or when making business decisions. Listening to these ridiculous Hagerty "market trends" nonsense based on rare cars is idiotic, moronic and completely ill-informed.
Greg_I
Hagerty Employee

@hothmob author here. Are you speaking of this article or trend pieces in general? I went back and no comparison of Superbirds and Mustangs was made and none of these cars I’d classify as rare. Please keep in mind that these pieces are to whet the appetite. We have a whole site called Hagerty Insider where we dive deep into the statistics we are tracking. And I’m sure you’ll be comforted to know that we have degreed data analysts working on the price guide and many of these market based articles.

 

You’re welcome to subscribe to insider.hagerty.com you may find the content interesting. If not, leave us some constructive feedback that we can act upon to better the analysis.

RodneyRacer
Intermediate Driver

I have to comment that I too think that there are few enough known sales of some of these cars to get a solid feel for where the market is at any time. Private sales continue and there is no way to track what goes on outside reported sales or auction bidding that did not meet reserve. Then we also have the "newish" super cars that are the latest and greatest car on the block when they are actually "Brand New" then they become outclassed by the next big deal, so these Hi-Rollers that have the newest, most fantastic 2023 Shazamm can boast they just out classed the guy down the street with his 2020 Super Pow. So what does the guy down the street do to regain his neighborhood status? He dumps the 2020 Super Pow and orders the 2023 Shazamm II. It's a game they play. All the time, the great cars that are nostalgic and in big numbers can be watched and easily tracked. Face it, when you agree looking at market value of a 55 Chevy, you can find plenty of the to get a real good feel of what is happening in the market.
Greg_I
Hagerty Employee

@RodneyRacer I do think there is a misconception that the price guide and analysis is based solely on public sales/auctions. Considering that we estimate that only ~10% of collector car transactions occur in that space, we cannot count on that as a sole source of information. We look at everything from what people are TRYING to get for their cars to networking with VETTED and TRUSTED dealers, appraisers and experts to get their take on the market and what they have been selling these types of cars for or what their colleagues are selling them for. Finally, before we post any value it goes through a review process to ensure that the data and logic makes sense when compared to the recommendations. It is because of this we speak with the confidence that we do.

hothmob
Intermediate Driver

Greg,  Please tell me who the "Vetted and Trusted" dealers are? A Kindly reminder that this is about the 2nd or 3rd shadiest business on planet Earth.  And given that KBB (Cox Automotive) & Edmonds are in on the game for "regular folks" vehicles, it's hard to listen to any "Article" seriously. And when it's based on "5 cars NO ONE HAS" and you call it trends, it's laughable. Any data analysis would agree, that this is bad data. Why not just call it "5 cool cars!"?  

hothmob
Intermediate Driver

Known # of sales in the single digits is poor data. My mention of Mustangs in the mix was simply to elaborate on the # of known sales of a particular car. Posting dozens of articles highlighting super rare Automobiles and lavishly draping a banner pronouncing "Market Trend" as data is just totally irresponsible, and only feeds on ignorance. Articles like this really only cater to the subsequent market of your advertisers- those feeding off the classic car market- and never offer sound advice on car valuation.  

Hagerty Fan
Not applicable

Hothmob, next time you make a post in here, please don't hold back, tell us all how you really feel.

You're among friends, so don't feel like you need to be restrained or that you have to worry about hurting anyone's feelings.

Davidb
Intermediate Driver

Canada is a beautiful country. I have been able to visit several times and find most all to be very lovely. That is why the Canadians should blow Alfa Romeo out of this century. To create THE ugliest thing to ever roll on rubber, Alfa Romeo should at least be kicked out of the U.N! To name something that ugly after one of the world's most gorgeous cities is THE major crime of forever! A firing squad should have been conveyed to extract payment for the headlight treatment. Betty Boop or Marilyn Monroe batting her eye lashes perhaps? The folks at Alfa are still allowed to perpetrate their complete lack of taste? -8% has GOT be a typo of major portions. Somewhere Preston Tucker is looking down and thinking "Mine were at least functional."
jekirkbride
Intermediate Driver

I like the red one at the top of the page.
Maybe it's just one person's opinion.
DuaneR
Pit Crew

The Montreal was first shown as a concept car at the Expo 67 in Montreal. The public nicknamed it "the Montreal" and the name stuck. I suppose it reflects the beautiful city of Montreal that is a very European city with a Formula 1 history. I think Canadians believe the name is very honorable.
Fieroman3
Intermediate Driver

But it was not a public nicknamr but originated from Alfa as an internal code name as this was a new model to be introduced at Expo 67.
And yes, it's a lovely car. Small V8 and all. From a different universe than the monstruous Plymouth horror. But it's only me, right ?
RKBerta
Pit Crew

I can't agree with your comments. For its day the Montreal was a wonderful car design. I drove one (not mine though) back in late 70s and it was a solid car but more of a GT rather than a nimble handling car like their other 105 series of ALFAs of the day. ALFA has always been noted for their body designs and many are true classics. I have owned ALFAs since 1969 to current day and raced a 1967 GTV in SCCA. The GTVs and spiders continue to be desirable cars and clean examples command high prices. But opinions are like A** Holes.....everyone has one.

Slow-N-Relaxed
Intermediate Driver

Those more interested in a GT car than a sporty car hold the Montreal in the highest regard and find the "pedestrian" Alfa sports cars entirely too common and not the best choices for going places over distances where the routes to get where you want to be may not be very entertaining. Eating up miles in comfort and style has it's proponents, and we think the Montreal is a better car in all ways for what we want in a collector car compared to GTVs and Spyders that are, after all, the 124 coupe and spyder of Alfa with 250cc less (more or less) displacement. The visual splendor of the Montreal is in another league entirely. The GTV and Spyder Alfas are good looking. The Montreal is a landmark vehicle design visually and and conceptually because it IS a GT and not just another Alfa sporty car.
rtbasey
Detailer

It looks a lot better than Walter White's car....
grampz
New Driver

I'd like to see Hagarty stick to the USA. I have no interest in foreign vehicles.
Greg_I
Hagerty Employee

@grampz thanks for the feedback. If you’re a regular reader, I’m sure you’ll find ample content to your liking. With European and Japanese collector cars being the fastest growing segment in the hobby, we need to serve those enthusiasts as well. However in this article, I chose vehicles on a basis of facts and figures alone, not personal taste. If that were the case, I’d subject the readers to another chapter from the gospel of Nissan Skyline.

PRScott
Instructor

Hagerty serves an international market. How mind numbingly boring it would be if they stuck only to American Iron.
You have they option to leave your mind closed and read only what you already know.
Jetblast77
New Driver

I completely agree with you
Hagerty Fan
Not applicable

Concerning whether or not Hagerty should stick with American-only vehicles, the three-ring automobile circus tent in general is more than large enough to accommodate all them 'furrin' cars, especially when one takes into account the fact that the Europeans alone have laid waste to the sedan market (I just picked one segment at random, there are more than just sedans where Europeans alone have trampled the Americans) here in the states, simply because American automakers couldn't be bothered to build a decent offering until the last decade, and even then, it was only Cadillac that bothered to try to phone one in.

And in case you're curious about where my loyalties lie, I actually have three Fords, one Lincoln Mark VIII LSC, and one Dodge in the driveway (that's simply the current lineup, by the way, there's more where that came from), although the Lincoln doesn't count because it's one of the worst vehicles that Ford ever built concerning American manufacturers obsession with 'good enough' engineering: The Lincoln is between gigs so to speak, with its previous gig being a questionably-reliable, running and driving car, and its next gig being that of a scrap metal supply for a few thousand toasters.

But when I wanted something dependable for my wife to drive back and forth to work?
I bought a used Mercedes, because I can't keep the Fords off the jack stands long enough for someone to be able to drive one to work consistently for a few weeks in a row...which is why I've got three of them in the driveway, just in case one breaks down and needs yet again more parts...and it's been the same story with any American vehicle I've ever owned, driven, or worked on: I've made somewhere around $30,000 in profit just from Ford 3.8 V6 head gasket repair jobs over the last two+ decades.

And don't even get me started on American project cars: I literally have to throw away entire drivetrains and start fresh so I can get anything useful out of practically any American RWD car built up until the early 1990's. And on top of that, I've yet to find any American car with headlights from the factory that actually direct some form of usable light towards the road surface in front of me.

That Lincoln Mark VIII I mentioned above?
It was somehow sold...by an American automobile manufacturer, as the best that they could possibly conjure up in 1996...with turn signal housings for headlights. I had the LSC model with HID headlamps (the first car made in the USA to get those), and they were still so terrible that they were impossible to aim correctly, and still delivered only questionable lighting toward the road. The non-LSC halogen lighting, however, was a thing of terror on its own, and I'm convinced that the CEO of Ford at that time must have had nekkid pictures of the head of the Department of Transportation and blackmailed the DOT into approving those headlamps, because I've used ancient two-D-cell flashlights with half-dead batteries that direct more light in front of you than a fresh set of first-generation Mark VIII headlamps.

But getting back to the European sedan market absolutely trampling that of the Americans, I would also add Lexus into that mix simply on the overpowering domination of their LS400 alone, but that would be the metaphorical equivalent of adding in another school bully to the dozen or so that are already beating up the annoying nerdy kid with the bad breath outside their school, as the LS400 alone has walked all over anything ever offered in a sedan by the Americans, and even kicked a lot of European offerings in the privates. 

American cars and trucks hold an incredibly important place in the history of automobiles, but to simply imply that them thar' furrin' cars have no place here in Hagerty paints yourself into a corner so completely that you've also blocked yourself off from receiving food, water, air, and light. 

There's an entire universe of incredible cars just from Germany alone, and to own one these days doesn't suggest to the neighbors that you're about to invade Poland all over again. Come out and enjoy the sunshine from other parts of the world...or stay in the cave of the American offerings of cars from the 1960's.

Me personally, I've got an BMW E46 M3 to go lust after just as soon as I'm done building my Frankenstein '96 Thunderbird: Aside from the insane political rumblings that are going on right now around the world, it's also quite possibly the greatest time to be alive from the standpoint of vehicle choice.

Or, since it's what both Jesus and I would do in a similar situation, are you simply trolling us?

Hagerty Fan
Not applicable

Odd. Double post.

Tinkerah
Engineer

I think the figures are relevant as long as they represent sales that took place in the USA.
JerV8Flat4
Intermediate Driver

You could always ignore the foreign cars and watch reruns of Matlock instead.
MattK
Advanced Driver

I'm not that young anymore and I miss the days when we had so many more diversified vehicles to choose from in the 70's and 80's, Domestic and Foriegn, including that 4th American Manufacturer. It was was fun seeing them going down the road. Not so much anymore.
1974Chevelle454
Pit Crew

Where are these "price dips" happening? With so few actual sales of Superbird cars, only a few sales can change the market price. It's like selling Michael Jordan Rookie Cards in the mid 90's. So few were actually "Available for Sale" that every time one sold the market would go up or down. Cars that rare and desirable will always hold their value........ and next year they will be on the list of cars making strong up tics in the market.

Always loved the old Monte Carlo's BTW !!!!
Autocar
Intermediate Driver

1987 Monte Carlo Aerocoupe with it anemic 305ci 180hp. Couldn't GM have spared a bit more ci and hp.
Slow-N-Relaxed
Intermediate Driver

You are talking about the era when GM thought they were untouchably ahead of every possible curve. They were making cars for 4 divisions that shared body structure and paint colors. I was getting obvious that GM had diluted the brands down to sameness. Forbes printed a magazine cover with a midsize car from Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, and Chevy... parked side-by-side, all painted the same maroon color, all with the same number of doors, same roofline and windshield angle, same door-glass shapes. That was calling out GM for becoming a vendor of such homogenized brands that there were really no brand-differentiators any longer. 1987 was in the latter-half of the Malaise Period where GM saw unique products as less desirable than common/shared products. It's as though GM only sold cars during that period that had 100% of the character and performance squeezed out of them before they arrived at showrooms.
JBBearcat
Advanced Driver

I don't think the sky is falling...a drop of 8% on a car few of us have seen in the flesh, or even 16 % on a car that is, for the sum of its parts (the value is based on rarity and being an icon), overpriced begin with.
Lash
Detailer

Beauty ---> eye of the beholders. I think that Alfa is butt ugly.
PRScott
Instructor

Not if you put it next to a "superbird"
Bounty2
New Driver

I bought a 1970 440-6 roadrunner in 1997 for $10,000.00. Completely original and unrestored but very worn out and abused . The problem is quality shops want $150,000 to restore it today. Still sitting in my garage waiting for me to pull the trigger. I’d hate to spend and have the value tank.
FormerCav
Intermediate Driver

do it yourself... You can rebuild your 440 engine for 5 Grand depending on what you put into it. You can get the transmission overhauled almost anyplace for 2 to 3 grand easy.
Suspension work is no big deal.
I bought a 69 Charger S/E in 1990 for 3500 and everything was there but everything was worn out. when I got done with the car on July 4, 1994 I had about 26K total into it. I did farm out the body work as I don't do that. That was probably 1/3 of the whole budget.
I drove the car until 2017 when I sold it like a moron. It is in Holland now.
Tinkerah
Engineer

Even $5K seems steep for an engine rebuild. I think it could be 1/3 that if you do the final assembly yourself, which is the fun part.

JBBearcat
Advanced Driver

You don't need to send it to a specialist shop...especially one on cable TV!

Numbers matching?
If not, you have a lot less to worry about.
As another poster said in response, so it yourself...by that I mean be your own shop forman.
Find a good engine shop. Find a good transmission shop.
Find a good body shop..even the best in town will be <$30k unless your car has rust or severe damage.
Finally, watch the aforementioned cable TV show and figure out where they get their interiors from. Send the dash our for restoration (new pad, clean gauges, New vacuum chrome).
Buy one, have the best upholstery shop in town install it (Ask the high end street rodders who is best in your town).

Your $150,000 restoration is now half that.
Don't do anything stupid...keep it stock and in the original color and your investment will be safe.
Tinkerah
Engineer

As FormerCav said: just fix what needs fixing. You'll have a classic driver with all the important things remaining original. Some buyers actually prefer that.
MustangJim
Technician

You don't need to create a #1 condition priceless show car. Make it driveable. Do what you can yourself. As long as the desire is there you are blessed with endless how to videos on you tube. As Former Cav, JB and Tinkerah said, if the engine needs a rebuild, pull it out and bring it to a good local shop for a rebuild.Just enjoy your car, both of you deserve it! I'll add if it takes a couple of years, thats ok.. better then sitting there waiting for the #1 councours restorataion.
Kingwood
Intermediate Driver

I’ve watched these markets for 40 years. A lot of those cars were purchased as drivers, then garage queens, then art objects. Now some are like bitcoin, purchased by value speculators, to trade. I’m a lover, not a trader
gtremblay
New Driver

This price bubble for used, classic and collectable cars market is about to pop. It went way too high. How in the world someone is willing to throw 100-150k on a regular 60's Mustang or Camaro, I don't understand. Very similar to the 2008 home mortgage crisis, all odds are aligned to have history repeated : Easy loans, longer payments terms, overticker price on new cars caused by chip shortage that heats the used car market, and the list goes on. Hopefully it won't, but I think it will.